Gordon Kubanek
Ottawa
Canada

Xxxxxxxxx

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000
From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Curricular Problems

k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu wrote:
> ....One can start with the symptoms of a difficulty and dig deeper into
>causes.
>
> 1. Can we establish a list of symptoms that are leading people to believe
> there is a failure of schools?.......
I've a list, but for the sake of brevity will simply point to the
education
establishment's near-total reliance on extrinsic motivators to keep the present
system operational. Without mandatory attendance laws, grades,
certificates and
other threats and promises, the system would fall apart.
> 2. After establishing the symptoms, what are the hypotheses for why the
> failures are appearing?
My hypothesis: The focus of the whole institution is the curriculum. If
that's an incoherent mess, the whole institution will be chaotic. I
consider the
traditional curriculum an indefensible mess:
PROBLEM: Knowledge is exploding, but no guidelines tell us which new
knowledge is
important, or which old knowledge can safely be discarded to make room for the
new. We're teaching what we think is important, but the main reason we
think it's
important is because it's what we were taught.
PROBLEM: Whole new disciplines are appearing, but the system isn't open to
them.
The familiar courses and subjects ignore vast and important areas of knowledge
that lie outside the traditional disciplines.
PROBLEM: A coherent education will be guided by a clear, overarching
purpose ˜ a
shared vision of what's being attempted. There's no agreement on such a purpose
for general education.
PROBLEM: The content of the general education curriculum is made up mostly of
"expert" opinion in various fields of knowledge. Intellectually, there
isn't much
that students can do with this content except try to remember it. The main
thinking process students are asked to use is memorizing. All other thought
processes ˜ classifying, hypothesizing, generalizing, synthesizing,
valuing, etc.
˜ are ordinarily neglected.
PROBLEM: Trying to provide a coherent general education using a random mix of
specialized studies rather than a holistic design is so inefficient it leaves
little time for students to discover and develop their individual abilities and
interests. We give lip service to respecting individual differences, but
present
curricula don't deliver as they should deliver.
PROBLEM: We deplore the simplistic "jug and mug" notion that teaching is
merely a
matter of those who know telling those who don't know. Nevertheless, we
continue
to treat students condescendingly, as passive absorbers of existing knowledge
rather than as active creators of their own knowledge. When little changed from
generation to generation, that was appropriate. Now, it isn't. We don't
know the
answers to tomorrow's questions. We don't even know what the questions are
going
to be.
PROBLEM: We make a very weak case for the usefulness and relevance of what
we're
teaching. If our students are as perceptive as we should hope they are, telling
them, "You'll need to know this next year," or "It's in the book," aren't very
convincing arguments for investing their time and effort.
PROBLEM: All students have in their heads a way of organizing knowledge imposed
on them by the culture within which they've grown up. To make sense, to be
remembered, and to be useful in dealing with the challenges and mysteries of
life, everything taught must fit logically into this system of
organization. The
traditional curriculum makes no provision for "surfacing" this framework of
ideas
so that students can examine, evaluate, and refine it, and adapt it for
their own
use.
PROBLEM: Research has given us important new insights into how the brain
processes information. The implications of this research are largely ignored.
PROBLEM: Both the skills demanded by the increasing complexity of our
technology,
and the societal problems resulting from that complexity, demand far more
instructional attention than present curricular structures allow.
PROBLEM: (In my opinion, the most serious one of all) Present curricula fail to
display the systemically integrated nature of knowledge and of our
perception of
the reality with which it deals.
> 3. After suggesting causes, we can then discuss whether or not various
> suggested solutions represent plausible roads to improvement, or are they
> directed to doing even more of what is already causing the problems.
I don't see much evidence of awareness of the above problems, much
less of a
concerted effort to address them. My decades of effort to convince the
education
establishment via books and journal articles that implicit in our language and
thought is a sophisticated system for integrating knowledge has thus far fallen
on deaf ears.
> The situation becomes very treacherous when the presumed solutions are the
> cause of problems.
Listen to the politicians. Right now, the major "presumed solution"
reflects a near-religious faith in market forces and principles to cure
education's every ailment. This "solution" will indeed be counterproductive.
Massively counterproductive.

Xxxxxxxx

Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
From: Kari Rothi krothi@gresham.k12.or.us
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

Regarding the question on why kids disconnect from school...
As a HS math teacher, I've got a couple of theories. (Do they apply to
other fields too?)
(1) School tends to be about academia and most kids never SEE people doing
academic work. The people kids predominantly see working are teachers,
construction workers, doctors, dentists, emergency workers, food workers,
clerks and other service-industry providers. For the most part, they don't
witness the academic side of business, even from the professions they are
exposed to. In this way, the relevancy to real-life is lost.
What kids see of "work" is often limited to...
..TV and movies (emphasis on drama & relationships, not work),
..infrequent visits to a parent's place of work (Note: parent generally
stops working when child is present)
..whatever a kid gets from random encounters in community (often
service-oriented).
The budgeting, planning, research, design and decision-making phases of
work are almost completely hidden from a student's view. For example, 80%
of my advanced algebra/trig students don't have ANY idea what engineers do
(because its almost all academic in nature), though the work of engineers
affects nearly every aspect of their lives... they've never met one (to
their knowledge); never discussed what an engineer does with anyone; never
seen one in action. (When was the last time YOU saw the WORK of an
engineer depicted on a TV show? It just doesn't happen! There might be a
character who IS an engineer, but what they actually do is rarely shown.)
Though talented math & science students are prime candidates for
engineering professions... they don't know the option exists. And aside
from engineering, students are largely unaware of how rigorous real-world
expectations can be in terms of communication skills, multi-layered tasks,
tolerances in manufacturing, etcetera. I could go on here, but you get the
picture.
(2) My second thought is that the need for everyday mathematics really has
decreased to an almost non-existant level, for many people, due to
technology. Real people use computer programs to balance checkbooks and
itemize taxes. They use ready-to-use loan calculators to find deals on
mortgages, car loans and the like. Nobody EVER has to multiply with a
percentage to figure out how much federal or state tax they pay... tax
tables eliminate this. Real people don't hang pictures with complicated
formulas or calculations for centering or arranging things... they just
"eyeball" it... and rarely does a lot of complicated figuring go into the
design of range fencing or corrals. Kids almost never see their parents
wrestle with anything resembling algebra. The message kids get is fairly
uniform (as presented by media, myth and a large body of adults): math is
irrelevant to real life. It is something "ordinary" people fear and/or are
incompetent at. Only geeks make a living by doing math. So in real-life,
if you need some deeper level of mathematics done, you either get a piece
of software or hire a geek. This is actually one aspect of system dynamics
software that I am leary of! In some ways, it sort of reinforces these
erroneous ideas.
On the one hand, "everyday math" makes algebra & geometry seem irrelevant
or contrived. On the other hand, the complexity of skills required to
exist in the corporate world are hidden from view. Either way, kids can't
see for themselves what they might need to learn how to do. We can talk
until we are blue about the importance of school but unless kids see it
themselves, they are going to keep disconnecting. Can we learn a lesson
from history? We must re-invent ways to expose kids to reality... but how?
Our current educational and corparate structures edit kids out by design.
What is most surprising is that some kids still ENGAGE! We must ask
ourselves, "why?" Are they just accepting what we say on faith? What is
it that touches the kids who DO connect with schooling? Can we provide
those experiences for others? If helping kids experience reality becomes
the goal, perhaps the people we need to educate are not kids! Maybe the
key to improving schools lies in public service announcements and community
education campaigns. It seems we need more partnerships with business and
industry to expose more kids to academic work environments. And with all
of this in mind, how does system dynamics fit into the bigger picture?
Sincerely,
K. Rothi,
Sam Barlow High School

Xxxxxxxxx

From: "Ed Brenegar" <edb3@msn.com>
To: "k-12sd" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000

I think Kari's perspective is an accurate one. I also think there is more
to this as education has become more of a comodity, and less of a community
where lives are developed. I know teachers struggle with the attitudes kids
bring to school which they pick up from parents, peers, the
media...wherever. But it certainly seems to me as one who has spent most of
his adult life involved in some aspect of education, that it is all about
completing the task as the ticket to somewhere else. The disconnection that
Kari notes is one symptom of this dilemma. In an ideal world, kids would
learn math for the love of learning. Everyday I am confronted with the
inadequacy of my education as I discover so many new things to learn that I
had no idea existed. I think it is that sort of love for learning that must
challenge the disconnection you see.
Ed Brenegar
Community of Leadership, Inc.
Hendersonville, NC

Xxxxxxx

From: niall.palfreyman@assyst-intl.com
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

Hi,
I liked Kari Rothi's post - it gave me an interesting new perspective on
something which has been puzzling and bothering me ever since I moved to
Germany
10 years ago. At that same time I also moved out of academia and into industry,
so I don't know which was responsible for what I have since started to notice.
Namely, that no-one seems to need a mathematician except insurance
companies and
banks.
I scan the job adverts in the paper each week, and EVERY mathematics job is to
do with either insurance or finance. When I look at the computer science jobs
they are all to do with programming natty graphical interfaces for the
Internet:
there is very little to do with modelling the form and structure of some aspect
of the world, which is what I regard as the chief skill of a mathematician.
What
happens to all these mathematicians? Do they all disappear into Never Never
Land
after graduating? Or do they all mutate into something else? Either way I
definitely do _not_ get an impression from where I'm standing of mathematicians
having a very high profile. So why would any kid want to study it?
Have a good weekend,
Niall.

Xxxxxxxxx

From: "Art Schneiderheinze" <schneide@coe.missouri.edu>
To: "k-12sd" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000

This argument occurs in many of the classes I am taking while working on my
PhD in instructional technology and cognitive and neuroscience. Although I
can see some validity to it, I always ask myself (and others who pose this
argument) is it possible that some math skills, traditionally viewed as
"important" to teach students, could just become "unnecessary" over the
course of time? Remember learning long-division or calculating square roots?
I don't. They were phased out when I was in school - THANK GOD.
Perhaps many people do use a computer to balance a checkbook rather than
doing it "by hand". Is that a bad thing? Is that a function of poor
instructional design in education or advancement of technology making our
lives a little easier? Isn't that one function of any new type of
technology?
Growing up, I often heard the argument, "You have to learn how to do a math
problem on paper and pencil... and not just use a calculator because you
never know when you will the batteries in your calculator will go out."
Reflecting on my experiences since that math class, I can't come up with a
single example of a time when I didn't have access to a calculator or
computer. If I didn't have access (say, the often used example of being in a
grocery store trying to figure out a better buy --- which brings up a whole
different argument about motivation of decision-making) I just "guessed" or
"estimated" and moved on. I don't remember saying to myself, "Well I can't
figure out which can of tuna fish is the better buy... and since I was too
perplexed in the situation, I just won't buy any!"
Furthermore, "progress" in society focuses in part on how we design and
develop tools to make carrying out daily processes easier --- make systems
more efficient. So, if we can develop technology tools that eliminate the
need to spend time working on certain tasks to get us engaged in more
meaningful, higher-order thought processes --- isn't that progress?
System dynamic modeling tools have opened a whole new world for students I
have worked with --- it allowed them to model situations and engage in
higher-order thinking --- problem-solving, decision, making, information
analysis, communication, and social interaction. These skills may have been
possible before, but oftentimes occurred within a pretty much unrealistic
context. Yes, I would agree with an argument that there are still several
instances of technology integration that is for the most part gratuitous.
The teacher struggles with justyfing that the technology is enhancing the
learning process - and the process may not have occurred without the
technology. If we are argue that the financial investment in technology is
making a significant difference in how kids learn - and that how they are
learning promotes continual progress in how we function in society - why
spend the money in the first place?
Is it a "bad" thing that people use a computer to balance a checkbook? Use a
computer to do their taxes? Use a computer to correspond with relatives?
Does that mean we aren't engaging in deep learning? That students will be
stifled as adults because they haven't learned (more than likely, out of
context) so called basic skills? Has the need for "everyday mathematics"
diminished? Are the so-called "basic skills" the same basic skills we have
always considered? Or has the definition (and need in society) changed and
education, which is one of the few systems in our society that has shown
much significant change over years, just need to catch up?
The statement, "math is irrelevant to real life" needs to be rethought --- I
don't believe kids think math is irrelevant.. they think the math
instruction is irrelevant. Although I have seen some good math educators who
know the knowledge/skills in math and may even know the pedagogy of math
instruction --- many I observe still see math as a separate,
sequential-based, discipline. When it comes to designing interdisciplinary
curriculum, its oftentimes the math teacher who sees this set of "basic
skills" that must be taught in sequence before students can engage in
higher-level thought processes related to math. And, in cases where math
instructed is paralleled to "real world" situations, transfer is not likely
to occur. Connections are not always made. Meaning is rarely constructed by
students.
The statement, "So in real-life, if you need some deeper level of
mathematics done, you either get a piece of software or hire a geek." makes
sense. And I will be the first to say, if I have a task to perform... and,
being a technology user and believer in making tasks as easy to tackle as
possible (hey - I got other things to do!), I will be the first in line at
the store to buy software that will help me out. Of course, that store will
be on-line... and I will use my credit card to pay --- so I guess I don't
need to know how to count change anymore, too. Maybe. Maybe not.
If we have the capability to develop tools (technology) that allow us to
complete tasks faster, possibly more accurately and precisely, AND create
greater opportunities for us to engage in processes that (at this time) are
only possible by humans, I see that as progress and an argument for
integration --- perhaps even saturation --- of technology in education.
I hope others in this discussion group bring up points to argue against some
of the things I've said --- or raise questions that help me rethink what I
said.

Xxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000
From: Timothy Joy <tjoy@pps.k12.or.us>
To: "k-12sd" k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu

Why has society disconnected from school?
Tim

Xxxxxx

Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000
Subject: Johannesburg Introduction
From: "Tom Oden" <toden@aisj.jhb.school.za>
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu

I'm excited to be joining the list. I am the HS Principal at the American
Intl. School of Johannesburg, South Africa. We have 500 students, K-12,
representing 50 different nationalities. I'm also an Ed.D. candidate in Ed.
Leadership at the U. of Minnesota. My area of study centers around the
induction of new students into a school -- what types of students are
successful, and why?
Cheers from Johannesburg.
Tom oden
--
High School Principal
American International School of Johannesburg
27-11-464-1505, x207
27-11-464-1327 (FAX)

Xxxxxxx

From: "John Gunkler" <jgunkler@sprintmail.com>
To: "k-12sd" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000

Just my own perspective on what math is all about (and, unfortunately, I
didn't learn this in public school nor in any math class, although I had
many good math classes and have an undergraduate major in math -- no, I
learned this from child psychology):
Mathematics is the ultimate achievement in an important developmental
progression: It is "formal" and "abstract" thinking at its highest level.
The ability to thinking formally and abstractly represents (according to
developmental psychology) the highest level of human cognitive
development -- and is not guaranteed to be achieved by everyone. Many
people stop short of this ability, even though this ability underlies much
of what contributes to human progress in all fields, from computer science
to social policy.
But, does "math class" in K-12 even hint to kids anything of the importance
and excitement of this? Sadly, not in my experience.
Perhaps we need to stop teaching "math" and start using mathematics as a
tool in teaching formal, abstract thinking. There are few things so
intellectually exciting as discovering that one can create a mathematical
model (or a math-derived computer model) of something that acts like a part
of reality.
I think this is partly what's behind the popularity of today's computer
simulation games (SimCity and all its offspring, plus the myriad
"historical" recreations where kids can be emperors and conquerors.)
Finally, why don't math teachers explain to kids that the best jobs, the
most exciting things to do when they become adults, are in "technology" --
all of which require understanding of mathematics (not math "facts" but how
to think with the help of math and formal math concepts) and, even more
important, require abstract, formal reasoning.
And, although the book is now ancient (published in 1980), I believe that
any teacher (let alone any math teacher) who has not read Seymour Papert's
"Mindstorms" is flirting with malpractice!
I quote briefly: "In this book I discuss ways in which the computer
presence could contribute to mental processes not only instrumentally but in
more essential, conceptual ways, influencing how people think even when they
are far removed from physical contact with a computer .... This book is
about how computers can be carriers of powerful ideas and of the seeds of
cultural change, how they can help people form new relationships with
knowledge that cut across the traditional lines separating humanities from
sciences and knowledge of the self from both of these. It is about using
computers to challenge current beliefs about who can understand what and at
what age. ..."
John W. Gunkler
jgunkler@sprintmail.com

Xxxxxxx

Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000
From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
Art,
> ....Although I have seen some good math educators who know the
>knowledge/skills
> in math and may even know the pedagogy of math instruction --- many I observe
> still see math as a separate, sequential-based, discipline.....
Nearly all the math teachers with whom I have worked, both at the
secondary
and college level, went into the field not because they were interested in the
insights math provided into the quantitative aspects of reality, but
because (for
them) math presented "puzzles" they found inherently interesting.
A year or so ago one of my college-level math teaching friends was at our
house for dinner. With considerable pride she described her "put down" of a
student earlier in the day. As I recall, the student had asked about the
usefulness of quadratic equations.
My friend said, "I don't know what you can do with them," she said, "but
isn't solving them fun?" She's a smart lady, but my tentative efforts on a
couple of occasions to get her to consider, say, helping her students make more
sense of what they read in the newspaper have gone nowhere.
Marion
--
SUPRADISCIPLINARY, SEAMLESS CURRICULA
http://digital.net/~mbrady/

Xxxxxxxxxx

From: UECKER Ed <Ed.Uecker@ODE-EX1.ODE.STATE.OR.US>
To: "'k-12sd'" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000

Tim:
Just a guess, but how about (1) its only a paper chase (what does a diploma
mean anyway, ESPECIALLY a HS diploma) and/or (2) we've embraced the ethic
that we can have whatever we want, but we never have to give? Too many
adults are far to shameless.
Ed

Xxxxxxxxxx

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
From: Janis Dutton <jldutton@iac.net>
Subject: Thank you Tim Joy
Why has society disconnected from children?
Janis
Tim Joy wrote:
>Why has society disconnected from school?

Xxxxxxxxxx

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
From: "Jay W. Forrester" <jforestr@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
>From: Timothy Joy <tjoy@pps.k12.or.us>
>Why has society disconnected from school?
To what extent is society disconnecting from schools for the same reasons
that students are disconnecting?
Can we go deeper into the reasons that students see school as not relevant
to their lives?
It would be very helpful to have responses from more teachers.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jay W. Forrester
Professor of Management
Sloan School
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Room E60-389
Cambridge, MA 02139
tel: 617-253-1571
fax: 617-258-9405
Home office:
tel: 978-369-9372
fax: 978-369-9077

Xxxxxxxxxx

From: UECKER Ed <Ed.Uecker@ODE-EX1.ODE.STATE.OR.US>
To: "'k-12sd'" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000

Marion:
Your story bears out yet another painful shortcoming of the teaching
profession: it is made up of both of those who wish to coach, guide and most
importantly, encourage others, and those who wish to control and feel
superior to others. Knowledge without skills is not a pretty thing.
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: k-12sd [mailto:k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 10:31 AM
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
 
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:47:45 -0500
From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
Art,
> ....Although I have seen some good math educators who know the
>knowledge/skills
> in math and may even know the pedagogy of math instruction --- many I
observe
> still see math as a separate, sequential-based, discipline.....
Nearly all the math teachers with whom I have worked, both at the
secondary
and college level, went into the field not because they were interested in
the
insights math provided into the quantitative aspects of reality, but
because (for
them) math presented "puzzles" they found inherently interesting.
A year or so ago one of my college-level math teaching friends was at
our
house for dinner. With considerable pride she described her "put down" of a
student earlier in the day. As I recall, the student had asked about the
usefulness of quadratic equations.
My friend said, "I don't know what you can do with them," she said,
"but
isn't solving them fun?" She's a smart lady, but my tentative efforts on a
couple of occasions to get her to consider, say, helping her students make
more
sense of what they read in the newspaper have gone nowhere.
Marion
--
SUPRADISCIPLINARY, SEAMLESS CURRICULA
http://digital.net/~mbrady/

Xxxxxxxxx

From: Eure654434@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu

Some thoughts on math in our K-12 programs. I am an elementary school
Principal, with over 20 years experience in the K-6 classroom. Math has
always been exciting for me, but found little excitement in my own math
education. Now, as Principal, I try to change the way teachers and students
view Math. It is amazing what even Kindergarteners can come up with when
they look at, say, Math in nature--flowers, pinecones, etc. They come up
with the most fascinating observations! As we move up the grades, we work
hard to emphasize math strategies, and math thinking. As I work with
teachers, I repeat over and over that we must constantly ask students, "Can
you explain what you were thinking?" "Wrong" answers are truly enlightening
when students explain their thinking, and teachers actually listen, and use
it as a springboard for teaching.When I talk to students, they are so
concerned with memorizing "stuff," that they lose sight of the possibilities
of the excitement of math. Of course, you're right, and as educators, we
need to ask ourselves how and why we helped create that mindset.
I am currently doing my dissertation on what teachers can do to strengthen
students' sense of self-efficacy. As I look at the classroom information
system, and how students construct self-efficacy beliefs, the area of Math
presents a real challenge for educators. We need to help all our students
make higher-level connections with math, which can only happen if we change
our own paradigm!
Joyce M.
Principal,
Long Island, New York

Xxxxxxxxx

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
From: Kari Rothi <krothi@gresham.k12.or.us>
Subject: Addendum to: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

A point of clarification:
In my last ten years as a math teacher, I've actively participated in
filtering out the parts of math that have ceased being useful. There's
nothing wrong with using technology to make life easier... I use a computer
to not only balance my checkbook but to fully manage all of my finances...
not because I don't know HOW to do it but precisely because I DO know how.
A single piece of well-designed software allows me to keep close tabs on
all my loans, investments, mortgage payments and taxes in very simple and
convenient terms. In my beginning algebra classes, we use graphing
calculators everyday in ways that my old high school teachers could never
even imagine. Calculator generated graphs allow quick and easy exploration
of the relationships between tables, graphs and algebraic equations...
developing a visual understanding for things which were in the past learned
only by rote memory and soon forgotten. There are also numerous other ways
that I use technology to teach. Technology is not the problem, per se, and
things have definitely changed in math education with recent history.
My concern has more to do with the fact that there is still a very real
need for students to learn algebra, geometry, probability and trig... but
they don't generally get to see this need for themselves FIRST HAND. High
school students have always had a fuzzy vision of what their future holds
in store, but I think the vision has gotten even fuzzier in this age where
most kids do not help mind the family business or family farm. Corporate
structures, as we usually think of them, tend to edit kids out of the
picture. I also don't think that corporations are going to just go away!
So the question is... what can we do about this problem? How can we engage
the corporations in our communities to work in tandem with schools to
thoughfully provide the first-hand experiences kids need to get inspired
about learning? We've got to find ways to get more kids on the inside,
where they can see for themselves what skills they may actually need in
life.
Sincerely K. Rothi

Xxxxxxxxxx

From: Mark Bielang <mtbielan@ppps7.pawpaw.k12.mi.us>
To: "'k-12sd'" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000

I've been following this recent exchange of ideas and agree with much of
what is being said about curriculum and the "disconnection" that appears to
exist. It appears to me that very little is being said about the importance
of relationships between and amongst students and staff. We can provide the
latest in technology, the best teaching materials, and clear and
understandable student outcomes but unless meaningful relationships exist
within our schools students - and staff - will by and large remain
disconnected from the environment. The most effective classrooms and
schools that I've observed and been a part of have contained people who
care for one another and know each other in more personal ways. To many
people avoid the "soft" stuff because they see little value in it. Until we
see the importance of creating meaningful relationships I'm afraid people
will continue to feel disconnected from our institutions of learning.
Mark Bielang

-----Original Message-----
From: k-12sd [SMTP:k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
From: Eure654434@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
Some thoughts on math in our K-12 programs. I am an elementary school
Principal, with over 20 years experience in the K-6 classroom. Math has
always been exciting for me, but found little excitement in my own math
education. Now, as Principal, I try to change the way teachers and
students
view Math. It is amazing what even Kindergarteners can come up with when
they look at, say, Math in nature--flowers, pinecones, etc. They come up
with the most fascinating observations! As we move up the grades, we work
hard to emphasize math strategies, and math thinking. As I work with
teachers, I repeat over and over that we must constantly ask students, "Can
you explain what you were thinking?" "Wrong" answers are truly
enlightening
when students explain their thinking, and teachers actually listen, and use
it as a springboard for teaching.When I talk to students, they are so
concerned with memorizing "stuff," that they lose sight of the
possibilities
of the excitement of math. Of course, you're right, and as educators, we
need to ask ourselves how and why we helped create that mindset.
I am currently doing my dissertation on what teachers can do to strengthen
students' sense of self-efficacy. As I look at the classroom information
system, and how students construct self-efficacy beliefs, the area of Math
presents a real challenge for educators. We need to help all our students
make higher-level connections with math, which can only happen if we change
our own paradigm!
Joyce M.
Principal,
Long Island, New York

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From: UECKER Ed <Ed.Uecker@ODE-EX1.ODE.STATE.OR.US>
To: "'k-12sd'" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Thank you Tim Joy
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000

Tim & Janis:
For some excellent insights on your question I would suggest Michael
Ventura's book LETTERS AT 3 AM: TALES OF ENDARKENMENT which has some great
insights into youth, and THE SCAPEGOAT GENERATION, the author of which
escapes me right now. My suspicion is that because they're a fiscal
liability and don't contribute to the bottom line, many are ready to throw
them away.
Ed

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000
From: Marion Brady <mbrady@digital.net>
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

> ....My concern has more to do with the fact that there is still a very real
> need for students to learn algebra, geometry, probability and trig... but
> they don't generally get to see this need for themselves FIRST HAND. High
> school students have always had a fuzzy vision of what their future holds
> in store, but I think the vision has gotten even fuzzier.....
I'd gently suggest that behind this statement lies a "future-time
orientation" that, although powerfully present in most middleclass adults world
wide, isn't shared by most people who aren't middle class (which is most
of the
earth's population), and isn't shared by most of the young even in middleclass
societies.
"Future orientation" manifests itself in an ability to think relatively
clearly about the future, assume (at least in a general way) that it will be
better than the present, and act in ways that reflect a willingness to delay
gratification until that future arrives. (Listen to ordinary conversation.
Note
the frequency of versions of, "Just wait until Friday, then I'll be happier!"
"Just wait until school's out, then I'll be happier!" "Just wait until I'm in
high school....get my driver's license....get an apartment of my own....get a
date with _______.... get married.......get divorced.....make my first million,
etc.)
To try to motivate present-oriented kids with future-oriented images of
reality ("You'll need to know this next year," "If you don't know this, you
won't be able to get into college," etc.) is almost always a waste of time.
For
most students (most people), if it isn't important and relevant RIGHT NOW, it
isn't important or relevant.
> ....So the question is... what can we do about this problem? How can we
> engage the corporations in our communities to work in tandem with schools to
> thoughtfully provide the first-hand experiences kids need to get inspired
> about learning?
Even if kids WERE powerfully future oriented, I'd respectfully
suggest that
corporate interests are too narrow to serve as a basis for a defensible general
education. Making a living is certainly important, but it's surely less
important than making a life.
> We've got to find ways to get more kids on the inside,
> where they can see for themselves what skills they may actually need in
> life.
I'm not opposed. In fact, I'm sure that'd be a good thing. I just don't
think it's the MAIN thing.
Marion
--
SUPRADISCIPLINARY, SEAMLESS CURRICULA
http://digital.net/~mbrady/

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
From: Stuart Kermes <skermes@eastconn.org>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

I have been following the discussion regarding why students from
schools
at the same time that I have been conducting a series of focus groups with
at-risk 7th & 8th graders as part of an effort to develop an alternative
middle school. Three themes have come up in each of the discussions and I
think they apply to kids relationships within their family and community as
well as schools.
1. Choice. Students felt that they were not given enough opportunities to
influence how they managed their day. Students identified a desire to have
choices around such things as classes, daily schedule, and routines within
classes.
2. Relevance. This theme operated on two levels; relevance for the future,
and for their daily lives in the present.
3. Sense of Accomplishment. These students talked readily of things that
they had accomplished which they were proud of - and few of these things
had occurred in school. They clearly yearned for the experience of success
and had not figured out how to get enough of it.
In terms of relevance, which a few people have written about, at the middle
school level what students seem to be looking forward is more relevance of
school to their daily lives rather than some distant future.
I think a lot of these issues are connected to the quality of relationships
in kids lives. When asked what isn't working for them in school, the
comments are things like "the teachers don't listen", "they tell me that
I'm doing something wrong, but don't explain what I'm supposed to do".
Listening to all of the above doesn't bother me to much because I know how
to design schools and programs that engage or re-engage kids. What seems
more daunting to me is that when I talk to teachers from many of the
districts around here they echo the same concerns as the kids; they don't
have choices about their work life, they don't often feel a sense of
accomplishment and they don't see the overall relevance or purpose of what
they are doing. They fact it better because they want the paycheck, but
clearly they are passing some of that onto the kids.
I came across one hopeful note from the SD front when I was reading a piece
from Jay Forrester describing a visit he made to a school that was using SD
in its curriculum. He asked a student something like what have you learned
from SD and the students answer was "I learned to deal with my mother
better." That's the best response I've heard for relevance.
Stuart Kermes
Manager, Planning and Program Development
EASTCONN
376 Hartford Turnpike
Hampton, CT. 06247
Phone:(860)455-0707
Fax: (860)455-0691
email: skermes@eastconn.org

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From: "Paul Preuss" <ppreuss@borg.com>
To: <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Introduction
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000

Hello!
I look forward to being an active member of this list and am happy to begin
with a brief personal introduction.
I have "retired" after 36 years in the New York State public schools - 32
of them in administration - serving as high
school assistant principal, high school principal, superintendent and over
the last 8 years as assistance superintendent' of a regional or
intermediate unit which in New York is called a BOCES (Board of Cooperative
Educational Services).
I was co-developer of a "unified planning" process for schools in our
region which is grounded in systems thinking and uses data and the search
for root cause to reduce student failure and increase achievement. New
York State has now adopted the model - called CDEP (comprehensive district
education planning) (<http://www.cdep.org>www.cdep.org) and I am
coordinator of the NYS CDEP Technical Assistance Center. Since retirement
I have also started my own professional consulting - specifically in the
area of comprehensive / unified planning. My website is:
<http://www.Plan2020.com>www.Plan2020.com I am a perpetual student and
look forward to learning from this group and sharing what I can.
Paul

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
From: Lees Stuntz <stuntzln@tiac.net>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

If the question really is why are kids disconnecting from schools- I would recommend reading Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. I could tell you long stories about intrinsically motivated students who hit schools with extrinsic motivational techniques at the age of 11-12. Suffice it to say that the structures used in our schools are designed to disconnect kids from learning. We take motivated learners and turn them into either disaffected non-learners or students whose only task is to get a good grade and figure out what the teacher "wants"- another form of non-learner.
A piece of me thinks that in some ways to change that ( our grading system) is the most important paradigm shift we should try to effect in schools ( other than the shift to system dynamics, of course.)
Lees N. Stuntz
Creative Learning Exchange Phone- 978-287-0070
1 Keefe Road Fax- 978-287-0080
Acton, MA 01720 e-mail- stuntzln@clexchange.org
http://sysdyn.mit.edu/cle/

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000
From: connect@uswest.net
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?

Stuart,
Your comments on choice, relevance and sense of accomplishment sent me back to a reference in Henderson and Hawthorne's Transformative Curriculum Leadership (1995 ASCD) in which they talk about five principles of constructivist work that I think have relevance to what you are suggesting. Here are the five principles...
1. Students should be presented with problems that become increasingly relevant through active inquiry activities.
2. Inquiry material should be organized holistically, through the use of broad concepts to encourage diverse problem-solving styles and strategies.
3. Teachers must cultivate students's of view (which I interpret to mean solicit ideas for choice).
4. Curriculum materials must be responsive to students' problem-solving suppositions.
5. Evaluation should be authentically linked to students' inquiry experiences.
Peter Duckett LRC Graduate Student
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

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From: "Jim Lunsford" <jiml@cabarrus.k12.nc.us>
To: "k-12sd" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000

Stuart,
Good posting. The next time you encounter a state legislator ask them to
put some "getting along with your mother" questions on the next state
assessment they impose on the schools. Our public education system is being
pulled along by the caboose rather than by a clear and focused aim!
Jim Lunsford, Assistant Superintendent
Cabarrus County Schools
660 Concord Parkway
Concord, NC 28028
jiml@cabarrus.k12.nc.us

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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
From: Janis Dutton <jldutton@iac.net>
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
 
Lees recommended Alfie Kohn's book Punished by Rewards. I think this book should be read by anyone who is even remotely involved with school policy and practice--including voters. I would also suggest that Kohn's new book The Schools Our Children Deserve is another good place to start.
 
Janis Dutton

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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
From: Josh Snow <jsnow@northstar.k12.ak.us>
Subject: Introduction

Greetings.
I am a Social Studies teacher at a small "alternative" high school for
at-risk students in Fairbanks, AK. We are the magnet school for the
majority of Native
Alaskan students who live in Fairbanks. They make up just short of 50% of
our student population of 150.
Howard Luke Academy is in the second year of major whole school reform
using the CES (Coalition of Essential Schools) model. I was originally
introduced to systems thinking during a workshop which we attended with a
CES consultant. I am in the process of reading "The Fifth Discipline"
(Senge) and we recently utilized systems archetypes for the first time
during a staff meeting to address the issue of low student attendance. It
was truly an eye opening experience. I am interested in communicating with
other educators about their experiences utilizing systems thinking in
education.
I am also a dog musher and see the potential benefits of utilizing systems
thinking in the planning and operation of my kennel.
Josh Snow
Howard Luke Academy

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From: dfoster@cis.com.mx
Subject: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000
I tend to agree that carefully designed grading systems with related
explanations could assist dramatically in learner motivation.

From: connect@uswest.net
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:53:35 -0700
To: k-12sd <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why are kids disconnecting from schools?
Related to Alfie Kohn's book Punished by Rewards is his new book, The
Schools Our Children Deserve: Moving Beyond Traditional Classrooms and
"Tougher Standards". You can also check out other related materials via
www.fairtest.org
Peter
Peter Duckett
LRC Graduate Student
University of Arizona
Tucson, Arizona

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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000
From: William Costello <WILL@cvumail.cvu.cssd.k12.vt.us>
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
Subject: Dicey!
For those of you have been interested in using the Mammoth Extinction
Game (see CLE materials) but have trouble pulling together enough dice,
check out www.classroomdirect.com and search for "Drum of Dice", 1
gross of 5/8" colored dice for about $13.

Xxxxxxxxx

Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000
To: k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu
From: "Timothy Joy" <tjoy@pps.k12.or.us>
Subject: Suggestion for A Spring Reflection

A pleasant and hopeful spring to all:
At the behest of some colleagues, we approach you with a question.
What we ask here is not for pedagogical musings, but for the keen,
sharp-edged voice of experience: what have you actually heard and what have
you actually said. We have among us teachers at many levels working in the
daily trough--our stock of experience grows daily. What has this taught us?
An April question:
The last month or so we have heard about students and society disconnecting
from schools. We believe, do we not, that system dynamics transforms
curricula and puts a powerful tool in students' minds.
Hence, this question: what is your most effective example of a system
dynamics tool that has rejuvenated or refocused students' attention and
effort?
Please be specific about the lesson and how students responded.
-----
Nan Lux, Deb Lyneis and Tim Joy

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From: "Gordon Kubanek and Carmen Hust" <gordkuba@enoreo.on.ca>
To: "k-12sd" <k-12sd@sysdyn.mit.edu>
Subject: refocused students' attention
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000

Nan,
>
> "Hence, this question: what is your most effective example of a system
> dynamics tool that has rejuvenated or refocused students' attention and
> effort?"
> My biggest success is to encourage process over results, teamwork over
individuals being "better than" other, keeping in touch with current events
by relating class material to news, doing ANYTHING as opposed to sitting,
haivn students explain to each other their thought processes and mental
models of HOW a problem is solved....
all together this is more the "Leaerning Organization" side of SD, or
Systems thinking really, from Senge - I call it
"Strategic Learning".
Cheers,
Gordon Kubanek
Ottawa, Canada
gordkuba@enoreo.on.ca

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